Youth Ministry That Lasts w/ Dr. David Odom

This episode wraps up our three-part conversation with Dr. David Odom on Deconstructing Youth Ministry and offers a timely reminders for youth ministry friends.

The future of youth ministry doesn't hinge on doing more. It depends on becoming the kind of leader who can faithfully serve for longer. 

🎙️ In this episode:

• Why working harder isn't the answer
• The hidden cost of ministry without margin
• Red flags that reveal you're running too close to empty
• The power of honest accountability and trusted friendships
• Why every youth ministry leader needs a place to be a person, not just a the persona of pastor
• How confession and failure are tools for spiritual growth
• What long-term success in youth ministry actually looks like
• Celebrating spiritual victories instead of only event victories
• Practical ways to rest without feeling guilty
• Why debriefing camps and mission trips may be more important than planning them

About David Odom

Dr. David Odom serves as a leader, researcher, and professor with decades of experience in student ministry. His book, Youth Ministry Deconstructed: Rethinking Your Ministry to Build Lasting Faith in Students, challenges churches to evaluate the assumptions behind modern youth ministry and reimagine discipleship for the next generation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast. This is part three, hanging out with Dr. David Odom here at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, talking about deconstructing youth ministry. Yep, you heard it right. We're talking about what it what was, what is, and what must surely be. But this time, sir, we're talking about how we're gonna do it in a state of being tired. Like you don't have to go to a lot of conferences to ask a lot of youth pastors, how are you feeling? And the two answers that we get are busy and tired. Tired. We're tired. Very good. Which I think is probably just the cultural reflection as well. Do you feel like that's just is that just the norm for us as people today is that we just walk around exhausted?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

I think so. I think we're we're we're busy, you know, and we're whatever uh our our vocation is, whatever job we have, we sort of feel the stress of the the busyness of life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

For all the technology, for all the whatever. What did you say last episode? We've never been more connected and yet more alone. Right. We've never been more convenienced and more and more tired too. Like, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

The frenzied life. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Yeah, yeah. We frenzy is frenzy is the operating organ, I think for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Well, uh, you know, technology was was sort of billed as a way to sort of you know make life easier. Yeah, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

The promise. The promise of of an easier life. That fixes the itch of life, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

And how's that worked out for us? Not so much, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

We just need more technology. Right. That's that's it. That's so damaging. Yes, yes. Well, I wanted to ask a little bit, because I think this is a necessary conversation after hearing what was, maybe what needs to be, in any spirit of like changes that need to be made. I think for a lot of folks, there's a recoil of like, when am I gonna have time to do that? Like, that's always the I think whether that's a senior pastor or youth pastor, any ministry leader, it's like we feel we feel the burden of change. Maybe things aren't going as they need to go, but when am I gonna have time for that? I don't know if I have any more time to add that to the schedule. So now we're looking at, well, then if I'm really gonna change something, it's gonna be a painful disruption. So given the reality that probably things need to be different than they were or different than they are, how do we do this sustainably? Like, what would your encouragement be to a young youth minister, maybe with a young family that wants to do right and sees the gap, sees the need, but is unsure where to make the right strides or steps without endangering their own um way of of living and doing and and joy and happiness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Right, right. Well, I think that that is a danger that I think you know, my concern with the book is that that I it I would somehow communicate that that youth ministers need to do more. Yeah. And that you need to just do more and be busier, and and that's the problem is you're not doing enough.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

The thesis is not, well, we haven't worked hard, we're trying to work hard, it's it's we want to work hard on the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Sure, sure. And and so the to to realize that, okay, yeah, I actually need to uh to give attention to you know my my own health, my own physical health and uh uh family and relationships and those kinds of things. And that's gonna require margin in my life, right? That's gonna require there to be those those times uh every day and certainly through the week that that I'm not thinking about youth ministry, that I'm not thinking about the church, and that uh for me to remain, you know, healthy and sustainable and avoid burnout, yeah, then I've got to uh protect those things in in my life. And so, you know, it's simple those things like um oftentimes in ministry we'll have days off during the week because we're busy on the weekend and certainly Sunday. Um and uh and oftentimes in youth ministry we would we would find ourselves entering the phones or going to a ball game or practice, and it's our technically our day off.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

The the day off where you're in the coffee shop working on the sermon you didn't get done on the day that was your day.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah. That's that's the kind of the reality. And so any time that those kind of things infringe on that time or infringe on family time or time with our spouses, I think we're in danger of really experiencing um those uh those that weariness and that frustration that that comes with ministry.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Well what what are some of those marks or stressors? Like this is one of the things we just talked about even over lunch as friends, like um there's just some things that show up when we see in in our in our in our people. Um chad Chad's joke from the podcast is always a messy car or sarcasm. Okay. That people that people who who's who uh you know that there's food wrappers that are multiple days old, right? Uh or the person who's usually a little bit more warm ends up being a little more chippy or sarcastic, that maybe there's stressor beyond just like the day. Um do you see some other you work with a lot of young students that are kind of managing time and life and expectations? Sure. Are there some other stressors that we can kind of lay out and name for folks that are trying to be responsible?

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Well, it I I love the uh the Snickers commercials. Yeah, you're not you're not you, you're not you when you're hungry, you know. That's right, that's right. And uh and and I think it's true, and I think we we see some of those behavioral uh traits, those shifts in the way in which we're responding to one another, like you're saying, we're short with one another or whatever. Um, you know, missing you know, appointments or or or or late when you're normally on time, you know, that those kind of things um that that need to be red flags for us and and help us to identify those in ourselves as well as Do you have some for you that are yours?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Like would you be would you be so honest to share? Like Wow. Sorry, just right here calling you out on it. Sure. Is there some that like you must tell for your we'll say for your students? No, yeah, for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Right, not not for me. No, I I think yeah, definitely choosing the green pen again. When I'm either when am I tired or hungry or those kind of things, I'm definitely not uh I'm definitely, you know, uh gonna be leaning towards anger or easily, you know, just sort of fly off the handle. All those kind of things, being short with people when I maybe normally would not. Um but but yeah, so so definitely. But I think it it it speaks to some of the things that we want to recognize in our own lives, the way we see in people, is you know, regular sleep and and uh and and the you know making time for some of these things that are important.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

I have a professor friend, and and she says that for most of her young ministry students, uh a solid eight hours rest, um, a hot shower, and two two good meals might might fix it.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Might just fix everything, right? That's that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

So if you're if you're under 30 and involved in ministry, when was the last time you had eight hours of school, a hot shower uh and two solid meals in a row? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Hard to say. Hard to say.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

That's just that's that's solving a lot of issues just right there. Yeah. Well, I think the the other piece for me is um the importance of you know relational accountability. You know, I think in terms of I reflect back on on significant seasons of ministry in my own life when um I leaned in hard to fellow youth pastors that I was meeting with in accountability groups on a weekly basis, that we were carving out time. Usually it was real early in the morning. We were meeting once a m once a week and um just being open and honest. You know, it was an opportunity for us to gripe and complain about our churches, our ministries, our pastors, you know, in a safe environment of other fellow youth leaders. Um, but also also uh folks that were really willing to uh to call me on some things. Yeah. Yeah. I think most often I I I mean the the one thing that sticks out in my mind is um at the time there was some there was a movie, you know, that was uh popular at the time, and there's lots of sex and nudity and all these kind of things. And and we were of course talking to our youth groups about, you know, you know, don't need to be w seeing this movie and those kind of things, that kind of thing. We were having that conversation, and one of the guys said, Well, that's all fine and good, and we tell our kids not to, you know, watch that, but my problem is I want to see it. Oh, sure. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just appreciated the transparency of that moment and the honor of the thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

I know what I said, but here's what I meant.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

I mean, really, you know, and and I mean it just struck me, and I think it was a turning point for all of us to say, oh, okay, so so this is a space where we can say these really struggle moments, these hurt, these moments that we've not shared with anyone, right? And we need those things. I think that when we think of longevity and ministry, we think of avoiding burnout, we need opportunities to be able to let go and to sort of unburden ourselves in those moments. And so I think for any leader who does not have uh an accountability group or a friend group like that, I would, man, I would just uh be seeking that out. Yeah. In our day and culture today, uh, maybe that's even on Zoom or something like that, right? Virtually. It's it's you seeking out a connection with someone that gives you an opportunity to say, hey, I'm having a tough week, or I'm really struggling in this area. Because when we're talking about some of these big issues, whether it's sexual sin that has that potential to, you know, blow up our families and our relationships and derail us in ministry for the rest of our lives, I I think that we're we're talking about um things like that that that started and the root of those things were perhaps when we were neglecting our time with the Lord and our time in Bible study, uh, in our own personal time with in scripture reading, and maybe this uh lack of of uh accountability or the um the margin. I was just reading a scripture, speaking of scripture reading, uh my daily reading this week has been on uh David's sin with Bathsheba. Yeah. And uh the whole famous passage where Nathan comes, you know, to David and tells him. You are he, you you are the man, right? You are that man. You know, I love that. And and what what I what I see in that, of course, the you know, the It's quite the dramatic moment.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Very dramatic moment.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

I mean, it's you know, it's a Hollywood moment. But what I think it it's helpful to me is it is to see that that even kings are accountable, right? And I have to be willing to submit myself to accountability even when it's uncomfortable or I, you know, that I'm I'm gonna not look forward to it, but I know that I need that. Yeah, and that's that's valuable. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

That's good. Well, I think it's one of those um uh you use the word burden, and I think there's something for a lot of ministry leaders that the calling feels like the burden instead of allowing the assignment to be the burden, right? Like being called into ministry is greatly important. It it it is a piece of who you are, but the work in front of you at this church and this moment in this season needs to be something that at some point you can lay down. There has to be a way with a group of trusted friends where you can be David and not Professor Odom, right? I can be Zach and not the guy that I call from Life Way, where you can be Brandon or Jacob or Stephanie, that's a person that has a life and a family and isn't just always, you know, that's I've uh I try to be careful when you when I name things than to call my pastor pastor when I need him as pastor and to call him by his name when he's my friend.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Um, because those titlings matter. And I think for a lot of youth ministry folks, it is it's a high and heavy calling, but it should be a burden at some point that we can set aside to just be. Um if you're always carrying it, it will break you. And I think here hearing even the humor of youth ministry friends, and that's where a lot of our booster group folks, like they get to share that like the reality of like, yeah, we have so much on the church calendar. It's crazy. Like some someone needs to be allowed to say that like we're doing too much. Like this is this is like there, this is they want double what we did last. This is this is crazy. Like it needs, there needs to be an honesty that way, or then it needs to be a painful reality of like, like I I did not do well this summer in planning for my family. Like, where can I where can I admit that I was wrong? Where can I uh where can I talk about where I did fail without having like every failure in ministry seems to be like the failure? Where can we have the little failures that were like, you know, we tried it, it didn't work. Or, you know, this summer I spent too much time at the church, not with my family. So next summer, I'm not gonna do that again. I'm going to get better. Right. Like we we we need these things in the same way that our students, we want them to own their faith through like doubt and question. I think some of us have to grow in our calling through like confession and failure. Like we've got to own what's right and own what's wrong in the places that it's up to us because there are things that we're being asked to do. And I think this is one of the things for us to talk about in the wake of changes that need to be made, are the pressures that we feel. But like, what what would you say is actual success in ministry? Like to go back to the beginning of we've been kind of chasing this, like what youth ministry has been and what it ought to be, but to to reverse engineer it and ask the question like, how do we know if we're actually doing a good job? Like, how do we like if we could paint that picture and try to run towards it? Like other than what we could do or could add or could change, what what does it mean to be successful in what we're doing?

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Yeah, that's good. Well, and I think that there's two parts of it too. Certainly we think in terms of the short term, but I think the reality is that that much of what we look for success in youth ministry we don't see until the long term, right, from years from now, right? And where we see, you know, students uh that have been a part of our youth group are now young adults uh serving in our church or some way or involved um in church, leading their own families, uh uh and and active in their faith and those kind of things. I think those are the successes that we long for and that we look for, but we may not see for years to come. And so the we look to the short-term successes, which would be again, I think some of the things about student involvement and discipleship and opportunities to to see students um making significant choices uh for their faith. I think of conversations with a with a student who would come to me, you know, in tears talking about how uh they weren't invited to uh uh a celebration or a party and that kind of thing, and they were feeling ostracized um because of a stand that they made, uh you know, a belief that they you know articulated and and they've been sort of ostracized. And in that moment, you're you're hurting for for that individual, certainly, and you're wanting to be there, but you're also recognizing that that's a an indication of spiritual growth in their life. That they were willing to sacrifice you know that uh that opportunity uh to celebrate to to stand up for what they believe, right? And to live out their faith in a way that was significant for them. And and so I want to I want to hold on to um those those types of things that I experience with students, those small victories, yeah, right? Yeah, those small victories put together can really sustain and really help us build momentum and in ministry. And so I want to be on the lookout for those things. And you know, it's not always gonna be, you know, we had you know a hundred more this year than we had last year.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

We we reached the goal that we plastered on the wall and set aside because we, you know, 50 more, 24.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's not always gonna be those kind of things. It may just be, you know, these uh maybe seemingly insignificant conversations with students, but but really uh show and demonstrate the work of God in their life. And uh that should feed us, right? That should encourage us as leaders to say, okay, yeah, something that we're saying, something that we're doing in our relational ministry with students is making a connection.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah. Well, and I think in some ways, seeing it and celebrating it.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

I I think uh one one of the things I I've seen to be true from law youth ministry folks um is we we throw these big celebrations for the event, right? Like it's you know, the event gets the budget, the event gets the time, the event gets the celebration. We did it, camp was here, right? But where is the like legit party for um the baptisms or the standing in faith or testimony night where the kids actually wrote, memorized, and share their testimonies. Yes. These are things that like should be as as as celebration worthy as any um fun idea or long standing, like have the tradition of like, you know, on this night, 10th graders share their testimony and we celebrate it right and mess out of it. Big time. Make that a make that a thing in a way that that, when you said it right, feeds you, fuels you, and lets you see that what's happening is is something that is a surge of activity, not by our planning, but by God's work. Because I do think that that when burnout usually becomes the conversation, the uh depletion of dependency is shortly thereafter. Usually folks that are feeling burnout um are just doing it out of their own effort.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Um, and I think that there's something to the margin that we didn't give for God to intervene or God to speak or for the Holy Spirit to move.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Um, but I think also because we thought we could just fix it. And I think that is sometimes we we've imagined the problem and we're gonna imagine the solution, and we don't consult God during any of it. Right. And I think that there's something that for ministry leaders to see um the ways in which what we're about, you weren't called into it alone, therefore you were not entrusted to finish it alone. That's right, is really significant. So that's so good. That's so good. What what is we're we're entering into a summer season and beyond? What what's some encouragement for the busy youth ministry you'd want to share? You've had them in the classroom the last year, right? Uh they're now hitting in the stride of of the middle to end of summer. What what would you want to encourage them with?

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Yeah, I would definitely encourage uh some times of rest, right? To take take some breaks and uh give us look rest is right.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Give us some give give us some uh give us some achievable achievements unlocked, achievable goals. Okay. You say rest, is that a three-hour nap? Is that a day at the lake? Right. Is that a long hike? Is is is that uh give me some example, give me some give me some things that I can mark off my bucket list. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

I will I think it's all of those things, and it's maybe gonna depend on the kind of who we are and our personality. Sure, right, and what what works with us, you know, because you know, some of us you know want to you know be around others and others of us want to know one, right, right. We want to be alone, and it depends on you know what is uh you know kind of working for you.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

That was my wife's Mother's Day card that I got her because she's my introvert. It was just um happy Mother's Day, introvert. I promise to leave you alone.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Okay, there you go. And that's my gift to you. You're welcome, exactly. Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

It was like that, and there was like a shopping gift card where she could go to her favorite. Okay, that was it. Yeah, just that. So time time time alone. That's it. That's that is the gift. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Well, and I think one of the things that's hard about it is that oftentimes when we're taking these breaks, we feel guilty about it. We feel like, well, I I should be planning something for my I could do, yeah. I mean, there's more I could, you know, we don't have this figured out or this piece and that kind of thing. But I still have got to to push through maybe any anxious moments that that uh creates in me to say, no, I I need this, right? This is this is what's best for me. And I I think that uh we definitely want to do that. That's good. Um I I think that one of the easy pieces, not it really even an add-on for the summer. When you're thinking of of summer, we oftentimes are thinking about camp and mission trips and you know, fun things and and various things that will be service opportunities for students. I want to maybe think about debrief times, right? I want to make sure that I'm building in in each of those moments opportunities where either at the end of that week or when we get back uh to our regular schedule, that I'm having opportunities for students to to to think about and process those experiences and to even think about maybe what might be next, right? What are what are opportunities? What did I learn this week at camp or in serving this week on mission trip that would uh would empower and encourage me for continued ministry here at home? And so, and that's just kind of a debrief piece. It's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Well, I know the challenges ahead for so many folks, not just in the immediacy of summer, um, but again, we referenced the book a lot. Thank you so much for the volume that you've written, for the contribution it is the conversation uh for the arena's research that gives us, I think, a glimpse into uh one of my favorite things is that you actually have youth ministry leaders. Uh, I don't know what all parts they played, but I recognize some names there from from Texas and Tennessee that were folks that were uh I think uh uh uh living into uh entrenched youth workers enlivening the conversation about what was happening and the ways in which you saw it. Um so I want to kind of leave our time here with you, uh you giving us kind of where you're at of like what's feeding you uh and what's in your feed and what's feeding you. Okay, right. One of the things we always want to know is what are the people that we trust? What's what's how are they growing? What are they learning? Yeah. Uh and so for someone that's give us a lot to chew on from what you've written and done, uh, what is in your feed and what's feeding you, Dr. Odom?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Okay, all right, that's good stuff. Well, there's a couple of things, you know. Uh so I'm an empty nester. We were talking earlier about this, and my my both my daughters are now in their 20s.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Fresh time found. I'm telling you, it's it's great.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

It's really and my wife and I are loving that. Yeah. But what the result is that we're spending a lot of time uh outside and gardening and these kind of things and doing some of the things that we like. Um so on my feed are all these things about garden hoses and uh you know the best you know uh fertilizers over here. Have you bought anything new because of it? Oh, yeah. Okay, okay. I'm right there. I'm like, yeah, I need that water sprayer at the meter of that extension. I mean, come on, right. Who doesn't need that?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Everything else has got seven, it's got nine. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

The other part of it is uh I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan, and so you know, we just had it.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Right here in New Orleans, okay. Right here with the next one. Against all odds. Against all odds.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

And against all odds of still being a Cowboys fan after all these years.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

There's so many other choices, don't you? Oh, there's so many other choices. So bad.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

But I, you know, I'm a diehard uh fan, and my my dad uh before me a huge fan, and so I feel that sort of legacy and that kind of thing. So my feed is is all kinds of updates on you know players and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

A lot of prayer quests, yeah. Yeah, a lot of things. Well, of course.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Pray for the Cowboys. Well, you know, my wife likes to say my wife likes to say, you know, her favorite time of year is preseason because you know, we're all it's we're just it's all hopeful. Belief. So belief. You know, the the season before us, there's so much, so much potential. Yeah, and then we actually play the games. And so that's that's tough. Oh, yeah. But um, some of the stuff that uh that I've been reading recently, I just want um let's see, uh let me mention Shane Pruitt has a book coming out with uh Shelly? Yeah, from DBU uh on reaching Gen Alpha. Yep and they've got some great uh stats and research and stuff, and and so they just had a webinar uh last week on that and the book coming out in um June 5th or something like that. So uh so that's some excellent stuff. Um uh a book that's been out a while called Um Uh Relational Spirituality Written from a uh psychology standpoint and and not your traditional ministry or pastor pastoral role. So that's been interesting to see uh some of the the um the psychological uh elements of relationship that play into uh uh faith and discipleship. So that's been interesting. But I always encourage people to this is kind of uh out of left field. Um I think that um we also in the midst of when we're talking about margin and we're talking about avoiding burnout, yeah. I always I read a lot of academic stuff as a professor, yeah, but I also try to read some things just for pleasure. Sure, yeah, right. And so I've got one out of left field. This is an odd title. This book is called There Is No Anti Memetic Division. Okay, okay, that's the name of the book, and it's by uh a pseudonym named uh Quantum. I think the author's real name is is Hughes. But if you're a fan of the TV show Um Severance on Apple TV, if you're if you're that kind of a sci-fi, it's a sci-fi kind of Yeah, yeah. You're connecting. Come on, come on, come on, yeah. So this is this is a really kind of out there sci-fi book, quick read, uh really fun, and nothing you know spiritually redeeming about it, but uh you know, nothing to really care about.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Well, but I I don't know. I are you so I'm a fan of the show Severance, or you're gonna be a good one. Oh, I love Severance, yeah. Uh there's there's something to that like the duality of or identity construct that I think is so very postmodern, right? Like whether or not it's like work-based or socially based, yeah. Uh but there's more than one teenager that has an avatar of who they are online versus offline. And I think I think there's something very real in the identity formation politicking that exists. Definitely. Okay, okay. Yeah, that's true. Come on, you're you're talking to nerds. Come on. You're talking about so check it out. Check it out. So you mentioned earlier comic books. Do you have any you have any comic volumes or authors you keep up with? Not not so much.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

I mean, uh, yeah, I'm a I'm a Marvel fan of Spider-Man and uh and and definitely, you know, remember as a kid uh collecting and reading, you know, as many uh Spider-Man comes.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Were you doing like amazing and spectacular? All of that, all that, okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, and so we're going back, right? So this would have been late 70s, early 80s, and that kind of thing. So it's going back, but uh, but yeah, loving it and then loving all the uh the movie iterations and looking forward to new ones coming out. Brand new day, yeah, yeah. I mean it's gonna be it's gonna be fun. So it's gonna be really good. And I think there's some connection there uh for us because I think there's an opportunity related to Spider-Man and the famous quotes that says, you know, with great power comes great responsibility, right? And I think youth pastors, youth ministers uh, you know, have uh a great um amount of of influence and and power there. I mean we're as we've said, you know, we are are ministering to to teenagers at a significant time of life, unlike any other time of life when they're they're uh facing questions of identity and purpose and and and belief and all these things, and we have that responsibility, that that tremendous uh privilege to care for them and love for them uh during that time and season of life. That's good. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Well, Dr. Odom, it's been great. Uh if you enjoyed this series, make sure to check out the links below for the other parts, and then also to pick up his book at BH or wherever you get your booksellers from. Thank you guys so much for tuning into this uh and our future summer seminary series. We can't wait to learn with you more, and we'll talk back to you soon.